tennyson wrote:

tennyson wrote:

Brady Bunch wrote:

First, while it appears that may be the case, we don't know that for sure yet.  Didn't just about everyone believe Michael Brown was killed unjustly by a police officer in Ferguson in the days after his death?  Based on the evidene, it turned out to be a different scenario.  So I prefer to wait until more facts and information come out before I say the police caused his death.

Second, I understand they are protesting the injustice they believe the police caused.  I took Fred's statement to mean how can they trust the cops to oversee the protests fairly and justly, and my response was based on how they handled the peacefule protests, both before Monday and since then.  I don't believe they have done anything to show they aren't handling this well.
 

I agree with both of the above. 


 

BTW, in a related item, the Baltimore police announced Wednesday they will not be releasing a report on Freddie Gray's death on Friday as previously expected. Instead, they are going to hand the investigation over to the Baltimore City State's Attorney's Office.

This may not be what some want but likely is a good move IMHO to hand it over and let the State Attorney's Office deal with it and how it is handled publicly. 

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/28934249/police-freddie-gray-investigation-states-attorneys-office

 

This is not what I want.
I want transparency

tennyson wrote:

tennyson wrote:

Brady Bunch wrote:

First, while it appears that may be the case, we don't know that for sure yet.  Didn't just about everyone believe Michael Brown was killed unjustly by a police officer in Ferguson in the days after his death?  Based on the evidene, it turned out to be a different scenario.  So I prefer to wait until more facts and information come out before I say the police caused his death.

Second, I understand they are protesting the injustice they believe the police caused.  I took Fred's statement to mean how can they trust the cops to oversee the protests fairly and justly, and my response was based on how they handled the peacefule protests, both before Monday and since then.  I don't believe they have done anything to show they aren't handling this well.
 

I agree with both of the above. 


 

BTW, in a related item, the Baltimore police announced Wednesday they will not be releasing a report on Freddie Gray's death on Friday as previously expected. Instead, they are going to hand the investigation over to the Baltimore City State's Attorney's Office.

This may not be what some want but likely is a good move IMHO to hand it over and let the State Attorney's Office deal with it and how it is handled publicly. 

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/28934249/police-freddie-gray-investigation-states-attorneys-office

 

I agree, handing this over to an outside agency is a good move.  I am glad it happened

Brady Bunch wrote:

tennyson wrote:

tennyson wrote:

I agree with both of the above. 


 

BTW, in a related item, the Baltimore police announced Wednesday they will not be releasing a report on Freddie Gray's death on Friday as previously expected. Instead, they are going to hand the investigation over to the Baltimore City State's Attorney's Office.

This may not be what some want but likely is a good move IMHO to hand it over and let the State Attorney's Office deal with it and how it is handled publicly. 

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/28934249/police-freddie-gray-investigation-states-attorneys-office

 

I agree, handing this over to an outside agency is a good move.  I am glad it happened

Yeah, to my mind too. If it were just handled by the PD it might send a bad signal to all interested parties. 



 

Goose wrote:

The Man wrote:

Goose wrote:

Well, they did describe the initial, peaceful protests as, " a lynch mob.".
And, Gray died in the Baltimore PD custody. I don't know if it was premeditated, accidental, or caused by an overzealous officer.
But he did get his neck broken in police custody, and the PD s responsible.

 
But what if the PD isn't responsible? What if Freddie Gray was responsible? Shouldn't we let due process play out before making that determination?

He broke his own neck?

Please give up on this and join the discussion

Most reasonable people of normal sensibilities would agree that a cause of Freddie Gray's death was a broken neck.

Most reaonable people of normal sensibilities would also agree that Freddie Gray was in Police custody when his death occurred.

While the Police are, without a doubt, and under the rules of criminal procedure totally responsible for the well being and safe keeping of a prisoner in thir custody it is utterly premature and illogical to ass/u/me that "the Police broke Freddie Gray's neck".

First unanswered question:   What about the second prisoner?   Was there a "van cam" filming what took place in the back of the paddy wagon.

Second unanswered question:  What was Freddie Gray doing?   Was he sitting meekly on the bench or on the floor, or was he thrashing about and banging any body part he could against the walls, seats, floor, or cieling?

I have three decades of experience in working with law enforcement; and yes, I have seen violent prisoners bang their heads against the cages or plexiglass in squad cars until they start bleeding profusely, and, in at least one case I personally witnessed, knock themselves unconscious.   Yes, a self-inflicted knockout punch against a prisoner cage.   It happens.

OK, some of you are probably thinking, yeah, right, he broke his own neck.  It is not impossible, especially if he had had a previous injury to the spine.

Third unanswered question:   If there was some serious headbanging going on, was this aided and abetted by an irreversible and lethal medical condition called "excited delirium" in which the body becomes so overloaded with adrenaline that the blood pressure soars and the heart quickly fails....sudden cardiac arrest.   It happens  
And once that course is set it is like tying down the safety valve and stoking the boiler with gasoline soaked rags.   Not a nice ending.   If there were some pharmecuticals (meth, hot heroin) involved add another layer of complication.  Bottom line:  if Freddie was in excited delirum that was absoluetly NO intervention by the police,by
EMS, by an ER doctor that could have saved his life.  He was going to die.  Period.

One of the long term outcomes I foresee is that "prisoner cams" will be required for law enforcement accredidation programs and insisted upon by insurance companies which insure goverments, long, long, before they are required by legistlation.   Then there would be fewer unanswered questions;
 

Tarnation wrote:

Goose wrote:

The Man wrote:

 
But what if the PD isn't responsible? What if Freddie Gray was responsible? Shouldn't we let due process play out before making that determination?

He broke his own neck?

Please give up on this and join the discussion

Most reasonable people of normal sensibilities would agree that a cause of Freddie Gray's death was a broken neck.

Most reaonable people of normal sensibilities would also agree that Freddie Gray was in Police custody when his death occurred.

While the Police are, without a doubt, and under the rules of criminal procedure totally responsible for the well being and safe keeping of a prisoner in thir custody it is utterly premature and illogical to ass/u/me that "the Police broke Freddie Gray's neck".

First unanswered question:   What about the second prisoner?   Was there a "van cam" filming what took place in the back of the paddy wagon.

Second unanswered question:  What was Freddie Gray doing?   Was he sitting meekly on the bench or on the floor, or was he thrashing about and banging any body part he could against the walls, seats, floor, or cieling?

I have three decades of experience in working with law enforcement; and yes, I have seen violent prisoners bang their heads against the cages or plexiglass in squad cars until they start bleeding profusely, and, in at least one case I personally witnessed, knock themselves unconscious.   Yes, a self-inflicted knockout punch against a prisoner cage.   It happens.

OK, some of you are probably thinking, yeah, right, he broke his own neck.  It is not impossible, especially if he had had a previous injury to the spine.

Third unanswered question:   If there was some serious headbanging going on, was this aided and abetted by an irreversible and lethal medical condition called "excited delirium" in which the body becomes so overloaded with adrenaline that the blood pressure soars and the heart quickly fails....sudden cardiac arrest.   It happens  
And once that course is set it is like tying down the safety valve and stoking the boiler with gasoline soaked rags.   Not a nice ending.   If there were some pharmecuticals (meth, hot heroin) involved add another layer of complication.  Bottom line:  if Freddie was in excited delirum that was absoluetly NO intervention by the police,by
EMS, by an ER doctor that could have saved his life.  He was going to die.  Period.

One of the long term outcomes I foresee is that "prisoner cams" will be required for law enforcement accredidation programs and insisted upon by insurance companies which insure goverments, long, long, before they are required by legistlation.   Then there would be fewer unanswered questions;
 

Thanks. 

All of this is exactly WHY we need to wait for the review to surface and why it needs to be reviewed outside the PD itself.