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- Goose
- Cogito ergo sum
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Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
This is a national security issue of the highest magnitude.
Trump, Mocking Claim That Russia Hacked Election, at Odds with G.O.P.
WASHINGTON — An extraordinary breach has emerged between President-elect Donald J. Trump and the national security establishment, with Mr. Trump mocking American intelligence assessments that Russia interfered in the election on his behalf, and top Republicans vowing investigations into Kremlin activities.
On Saturday, intelligence officials said it was not until the week after the election that the C.I.A. altered its formal assessment of Russia’s activities to conclude that the government of President Vladimir V. Putin was not just trying to undermine the election, but had also acted to give one candidate an advantage.
Wary of being seen as politicizing their findings, C.I.A. analysts had been reluctant to come to that conclusion in the midst of the election — even as many supporters of Hillary Clinton believed it was obvious, given the leak of emails from her campaign chairman and others.
One intelligence official said there were indications in early October that the Russians had shifted their focus to harm Mrs. Clinton. The C.I.A.’s slowness in shifting its assessment, another official said, was one reason President Obama ordered a full review of “lessons learned” on the operation to influence the election.
But the disclosure of the still-classified findings prompted a blistering attack against the intelligence agencies by Mr. Trump, whose transition office said in a statement on Friday night that “these are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction,” adding that the election was over and that it was time to “move on.”
Mr. Trump has split on the issue with many Republicans on the congressional intelligence committees, who have said they were presented with significant evidence, in closed briefings, of a Russian campaign to meddle in the election.
The rift also raises questions about how Mr. Trump will deal with the intelligence agencies he will have to rely on for analysis of China, Russia and the Middle East, as well as for covert drone and cyberactivities.
At this point in a transition, a president-elect is usually delving into intelligence he has never before seen, and learning about C.I.A. and National Security Agency abilities. But Mr. Trump, who has taken intelligence briefings only sporadically, is questioning not only analytic conclusions, but also their underlying facts.
“To have the president-elect of the United States simply reject the fact-based narrative that the intelligence community puts together because it conflicts with his a priori assumptions — wow,” said Michael V. Hayden, who was the director of the N.S.A. and later the C.I.A. under President George W. Bush.
With the partisan emotions on both sides — Mr. Trump’s supporters see a plot to undermine his presidency, and Mrs. Clinton’s supporters see a conspiracy to keep her from the presidency — the result is an environment in which even those basic facts become the basis for dispute.
Mr. Trump’s team lashed out at the agencies after The Washington Post reported that the C.I.A. believed that Russia had intervened to undercut Mrs. Clinton and lift Mr. Trump, and The New York Times reported that Russia had broken into Republican National Committee computer networks just as they had broken into Democratic ones, but had released documents only on the Democrats.
For months, the president-elect has strenuously rejected all assertions that Russia was working to help him, though he did at one point invite Russia to find thousands of Mrs. Clinton’s emails. There is no evidence that the Russian meddling affected the outcome of the election or the legitimacy of the vote, but Mr. Trump and his aides want to shut the door on any such notion, including the idea that Mr. Putin schemed to put him in office.
We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists.
- Goose
- Cogito ergo sum
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Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
So far, Team Trump has shown nothing but hostility to the possibility of Russian manipulation, saying this about the CIA;
"These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction,".
Their reaction is troubling.
I understand that they are alarmed at the prospect of the election's legitimacy being questioned.
I am alarmed as well.
But, lashing out at our own intelligence community is not the proper course of action. It shows an administration that will refuse to look at things they would rather not see. That reminds me of GWB in the run up to the Iraq war.
And, as far as jabbing at the CIA for getting the WMD issue wrong,,,,,,, Well, that proves that the CIA is fallible. It does NOT prove that they are wrong about this.
And, about the CIA and WMD in Iraq,,,,
Last year the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) that was used to justify the Iraq war was finally declassified.
In that document the CIA admitted that it lacked "specific information" on "many key aspects" of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs.
All through the NIE the CIA offers numerous qualifiers to convey uncertainty such as this;
"probably has renovated a [vaccine] production plant" to manufacture biological weapons "but we are unable to determine whether [biological weapons] agent research has resumed."
And this:
"As with much of the information on the overall relationship, details on training and support are second-hand," the NIE said. "The presence of al-Qa'ida militants in Iraq poses many questions. We do not know to what extent Baghdad may be actively complicit in this use of its territory for safehaven and transit."
Unfortunately, Government officials overstated the intelligence.
But in an October 7, 2002 speech in Cincinnati, Ohio, then-President George W. Bush simply said Iraq, "possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons" and "the evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program."
One of the most significant parts of the NIE revealed for the first time is the section pertaining to Iraq's alleged links to al Qaeda. In September 2002, then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld claimed the US had "bulletproof" evidence linking Hussein's regime to the terrorist group.
So, the CIA didn't get the WMD thing as wrong as the Trumpers are suggesting.
The reasonable course would be to see what the CIA has and then make a judgment.
Here is a place for consequential Congressional hearings.
Last edited by Goose (12/11/2016 8:12 am)
We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists.
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Thread Starter- TheLagerLad
- Exchange Beer Snob
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Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
Looks like a bi-partisan group of Senators, including McCain, Graham, Schumer, and Reed, have called for a formal Senate investigation this morning.
I think you're going to see a lot of different United States of America over the next three, four, or eight years. - President Donald J. Trump
- tennyson
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Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
To NOT be concerned and want to find out the answer is appalling and scary.
"Do not confuse motion and progress, A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress"
- Common Sense
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Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
Where is NSA on this subject? They should be the lead agency if there is "hacking" the election claims.
There needs to be a full official bipartisan assessment of what happened. The article is written as a hit piece that claim intelligence official are saying this or that! Who is the intelligence official claiming this and where is the evidence?
We all know why Hillary lost the election! She lost the election because of her actions and her actions alone. She had no economic message for the middle working class and that cost her the rust belt. And her decision to set up a secret e-mail server at her home and then place highly classified material showed the country she did not have good judgement about national security issues. The stupid "fake news" and the "Russians did" excuses won't hold any water with middle America.
Someone in the Democratic party better wake up or 2018 is going is going to be a slaughter in the Senate for the democrats.
One other thing this is not the first time there has been friction between the White House and the intelligence agency's and it won't be the last.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident,” former vice president Biden said during a campaign event in Texas on Monday. "All men and women created by — you know, you know, the thing.”
- tennyson
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Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
Common Sense wrote:
Where is NSA on this subject? They should be the lead agency if there is "hacking" the election claims.
There needs to be a full official bipartisan assessment of what happened. The article is written as a hit piece that claim intelligence official are saying this or that! Who is the intelligence official claiming this and where is the evidence?
We all know why Hillary lost the election! She lost the election because of her actions and her actions alone. She had no economic message for the middle working class and that cost her the rust belt. And her decision to set up a secret e-mail server at her home and then place highly classified material showed the country she did not have good judgement about national security issues. The stupid "fake news" and the "Russians did" excuses won't hold any water with middle America.
Someone in the Democratic party better wake up or 2018 is going is going to be a slaughter in the Senate for the democrats.
One other thing this is not the first time there has been friction between the White House and the intelligence agency's and it won't be the last.
This is not exactly in the NSA's perview if you check out their mission. Although in that they deal with encryption/decryption they might be interested in ways hackers circumvent those safeguards.
As far as 2018, it all depends on what happens in the next 4 years. IF Trump and the R-tribe cannot lead and fulfill promises, then it is a whole new ballgame. They certainly have done nothing in the past 8 years to prove they can govern, but we shall see. There have been a lot of promises made. Time to deliver.
The big thrust of the article is aimed at Trump appearing to ignore the fact that there could have been real attempts to sway the election by a foreign power. The one manin thing the President is supposed to do is to protect the US from any foreign aggression and this is the potential new wave of that reality. We really need to check this out as you indicated vigorously.
Last edited by tennyson (12/11/2016 12:51 pm)
"Do not confuse motion and progress, A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress"
- Goose
- Cogito ergo sum
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Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
Where is NSA on this subject? They should be the lead agency if there is "hacking" the election claims.
There needs to be a full official bipartisan assessment of what happened. The article is written as a hit piece that claim intelligence official are saying this or that! Who is the intelligence official claiming this and where is the evidence?
We all know why Hillary lost the election! She lost the election because of her actions and her actions alone. She had no economic message for the middle working class and that cost her the rust belt. And her decision to set up a secret e-mail server at her home and then place highly classified material showed the country she did not have good judgement about national security issues. The stupid "fake news" and the "Russians did" excuses won't hold any water with middle America.
Someone in the Democratic party better wake up or 2018 is going is going to be a slaughter in the Senate for the democrats.
One other thing this is not the first time there has been friction between the White House and the intelligence agency's and it won't be the last.
Hit piece?
What on earth are you talking about?
It's pretty much a straight up news story.
Take a deep breath, and try to absorb this:
Neither the CIA, nor the NYT claims that Russian interference determined the outcome of the election.
Neither the NYT, the CIA, or anybody on the Exchange has claimed that Fake news stories determined the outcome of the election.
We know why Clinton lost.
You are attacking an argument that no one has made.
Imagine that.
Now, the CIA alleges that the Russians did indeed try to meddle in this election.
We need to get more information.
And fake news stories do, in fact, exist.
If you cannot accept that, well that's your problem.
One other thing this is not the first time there has been friction between the White House and the intelligence agency's and it won't be the last.
Common
Sure, friction. But, I - like most others here - have been following politics a long time. And I don't recall any President-elect ever acting like this.
It is, in fact, unprecedented.
Last edited by Goose (12/11/2016 5:19 pm)
We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists.
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Thread Starter- Goose
- Cogito ergo sum
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Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
Where is NSA on this subject? They should be the lead agency if there is "hacking" the election claims.
.
I'm so happy you asked.
It seems that the NSA has been concerned since at least September.
NSA Chief: Potential Russian Hacking of U.S. Elections a Concern
And in November.
NSA CHIEF: A nation-state made a 'conscious effort' to sway the US presidential election
On Tuesday, the director of the National Security Agency, Admiral Michael Rogers, was asked about the WikiLeaks release of hacked information during the campaign, and he said, "This was a conscious effort by a nation-state to attempt to achieve a specific effect." He added, "This was not something that was done casually. This was not something that was done by chance. This was not a target that was selected purely arbitrarily."
Look, this is real. It is not going away.
You cannot make it go away by hating on Hillary.
So, let's get on with an investigation and get to the bottom of it.
Ignoring this to serve partisanship would do an immense disservice to the nation.
Last edited by Goose (12/12/2016 7:41 am)
We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists.
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Thread Starter- tennyson
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Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
Prominent Republicans lining up for the investigation.
GOP senators seeking congressional probe on Russia hacking allegations
The following Republican lawmakers have called for a congressional investigation on allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, or endorsed such an effort:
- Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.
- Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
- Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C.
- Sen. James Lankford, R-Okla.
- Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky.
Last edited by tennyson (12/12/2016 11:10 am)
"Do not confuse motion and progress, A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress"
- Goose
- Cogito ergo sum
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- Registered: 1/29/2015
- Posts: 13,427
Re: Time to Set Partisanship Aside, and Get To The Bottom of This
Prominent Republicans lining up for the investigation.
GOP senators seeking congressional probe on Russia hacking allegations
The following Republican lawmakers have called for a congressional investigation on allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, or endorsed such an effort:
- Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.
- Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
- Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C.
- Sen. James Lankford, R-Okla.
- Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky.
It's the right thing to do.
We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists.
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