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8/31/2016 8:06 am  #1


Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

150 years ago we understood that public education was an important priority to maintain a democratic nation.  Back then, a high school diploma was a significant milestone and opened doors to a successful future for high school graduates.

Today, however, a high school diploma is only a stepping stone for many young people looking to fit into a society and culture that is much more technical, complicated, and sophisticated.  I believe along with national defense and healthcare, education needs to be a high priority for the success of American democracy and our nation as a whole.  Education is an investment in the future.

I support tuition-free post secondary education public institutions, from trade schools to college, for those that have the desire, ability, and work ethic to pursue a career in the field of their choice.  One requirement would be to maintain a GPA of 3.0 or the tution-free opportunity would be forfeited.  Notice I said I support tuition-free public education.  Room and board would not be included in the program.

Private schools and colleges would still operate as they always have been.

 

Last edited by Just Fred (8/31/2016 8:08 am)

 

8/31/2016 8:22 am  #2


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

Do you have any estimate on the yearly cost of such a program?

I would add a few caveats:
Put a time limit on the number of years someone can get the aid.
Exclude schools that do not meet requirements for reasonable graduation rates.
Exclude schools that don't meet reasonable standards. ITT Tech comes to mind.

Last edited by Goose (8/31/2016 8:22 am)


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
 

8/31/2016 8:35 am  #3


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

Good points, Goose.  I'm not familiar with ITT Tech.  Is that a state sponsored school or is it run privately?

I'm not sure of the costs, but I view tuition-free schooling to be an investment in America's future.  Sometimes the benefits associated with investing are not immediately realized.

Your point about time limits is a good one.  I should have thought of that, too.

     Thread Starter
 

8/31/2016 8:53 am  #4


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

In theory I support the idea. But the tricky question is always: How do you pay for it?

Public basic education takes a big bite out of people's wallets. I know this because I just dropped off a check at the township tax office last week for over $5,000.

I'm not complaining. I like my daughter's school, and the district, and her teachers, and the facilities. It's a worthy investment. But if my tax bill is going to increase because I need to fund colleges, well, that's tough to be honest.

Here's another thing... in K-12, there's a standard set of curriculum that every kid needs to go through. It makes it easy then to say that all things are equal in the cost of education and that by assessing property values, the "richer" pay a higher share of total costs to run a district. 

When it comes to college, there is no mandate that an adult go to college. And if they do go to college, the costs will vary greatly by the program. You could pay under $100,000 for a 4 year History degree at Shippensburg or $300,000 for a medical degree from Temple University. How can we proportionally allocate funding for all of the various studies one can participate in?

Another problem -- we all know of the story about university orientation where the professor will tell the student to look at the person on the left and the right of them and to know that two of the three people will drop out before obtaining a degree.

How do we account for those students who just can't handle college, either academically, socially, or otherwise?

It's my belief that the students need to have some skin in the game. They are young adults. They need to know that nothing is given for free.

I do think we should fund college education, at a state level, as  much as possible and I think Pennsylvania does a pretty good job of funding the state university system (although Corbett took a big chunk of funding away). It is substantially cheaper to send a student to a public university or community college than it is a private school in Pennsylvania, but I just don't know if you can go all the way to making it 100% free. 


I think you're going to see a lot of different United States of America over the next three, four, or eight years. - President Donald J. Trump
 

8/31/2016 9:20 am  #5


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

Why do we, in the U.S., always approach a problem from a negative perspective and try to act like we are attempting to invent the first solution ever to a problem. All one has to do is look around the world and investigate other countries that manage a tuition free or nearly tuition free higher education system despite the naysayers. Maybe we can gather some insight from their approaches. Heck, they even invite American students to take advantage of their college level educational system that will allow them to graduate with little or no debt.

Here are a couple of links about other countries that have employed tuition free higher education:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/10/29/7-countries-where-americans-can-study-at-universities-in-english-for-free-or-almost-free/

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/02/7_countries_where_college_is_free_partner/

http://blog.credit.com/2014/10/would-free-college-tuition-work-in-the-u-s-99429/


I guess it's a matter of setting priorities and following through on the desired path.

Of course, that requires cooperation, collaboration, and compromise in the legislature . . . Something that we don't have at this time. So, I guess we'll just sit and watch the educational standards and students decline in the U.S. while the rest of the world passes us by.

But, we'll still have the most expensive military, government, and education system in the world.

 

8/31/2016 10:04 am  #6


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

I wouldn't describe myself as coming at this from a negative perspective.
But, I am a realist. And I've seen some awful things happen to money from the federal student loan program.

Some shady enterprises, with abysmal graduation rates (Often "technical schools", or online enterprises) got approved for those programs. They got their money,,,,, the students did not get degrees, or the promised good jobs to follow,,, and were saddled with debt.
Let's be careful not to create a boondoggle.
Just rigorously vet the institutions who will get the federal money, assure me that it won't be a ripoff, and I'm all in. 

Last edited by Goose (8/31/2016 10:07 am)


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
 

8/31/2016 10:25 am  #7


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

Good discussion.  Good posts.  I found rongone's links to sites to be particularly enlightening.  His point about "we don't have to re-invent the wheel" here really hits home with me.

Of particular concern should be the 1.2 trillion dollar debt graduates are saddled with, too.  Imagine that 1.2 trillion circulating around our economy instead of being tied up in student loan payments.  Maybe the revenue used to support such a program would have a positive ripple effect throughout the economy.

 

     Thread Starter
 

8/31/2016 10:28 am  #8


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

Just rigorously vet the institutions who will get the federal money, assure me that it won't be a ripoff, and I'm all in.   -  Goose

So I guess that leaves Trump University out of the picture? 

 

     Thread Starter
 

8/31/2016 10:31 am  #9


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

The credit.com blog post was really informative and just shows the immense amount of complexity around transforming the secondary education.

If you follow the German model, you need to....

Consolidate regional smaller schools into bigger schools.

Eliminate the redundancy of administrative overhead

Eliminate all of the "frills" such as room and board and many extra-curricular activities

Again, if we were going to move towards a more "German" model, you'd almost need to federalize all of the colleges and universities and move to national standards around grades and SAT scores.

I think all of that would require cooperation not just in federal, state, and local government, but would also include a substantial willingness to change in the private sector as well. 

And in the writer of the blog post's opinion, that ain't happening. 

So like anything else, a change in how we help students get a globally competitive college education is going to have to be done in small bites, at the state level, with the help of the universities as well.

Let's not forget that as a matter of evolution, we'll see lower cost alternatives as well. Heck,Harvard University has a series of free online courses.

Last edited by TheLagerLad (8/31/2016 10:31 am)


I think you're going to see a lot of different United States of America over the next three, four, or eight years. - President Donald J. Trump
 

8/31/2016 12:05 pm  #10


Re: Tuition Free Post Secondary Ed.

Ok, I get the heavy lift it would be, but what about this:

Of particular concern should be the 1.2 trillion dollar debt graduates are saddled with, too.  Imagine that 1.2 trillion circulating around our economy instead of being tied up in student loan payments.  Maybe the revenue used to support a tuition-free program would have a positive ripple effect throughout the economy.

Secondly, I think we should consider the massive amounts of dough we sink into our military-industrial complex whereas Finland, Norway, etc. spend alot less.  Maybe they see a greater value in the education of their people.
 

Last edited by Just Fred (8/31/2016 12:06 pm)

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