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2/19/2016 5:46 am  #1


In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

Guys, I've been to Rome several times. You can walk from Rome right into Vatican City and Saint Peter's square.
No passport. No Visa.  Heck, no gate. You just cross the street.
Now, there is a charge to get into the Vatican Museum.

Hey, I realize that it's Mr. Scavino's job to defend Donald Trump, no matter what.
But, Joe Scarborough is supposed to be a journalist. It's a little disconcerting when the press displays such obvious ignorance, and says dopey stuff.



In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls
By LIAM STACKFEB. 19, 2016


Supporters of Donald J. Trump were quick to suggest on Thursday that Pope Francis was being hypocritical to criticize as un-Christian Mr. Trump’s proposal to build a wall between the United States and Mexico because the pontiff himself lives in Vatican City, a small state with sturdy walls of its own.

“Amazing comments from the pope — considering Vatican City is 100% surrounded by massive walls,” Dan Scavino, Mr. Trump’s social media director and senior adviser, said on Twitter after the pope suggested Mr. Trump, a Republican presidential candidate, was “not Christian.”

Mr. Scavino tweeted a picture of Vatican City with an outline around its border that suggested walls stood on some territory where no walls, in fact, stand.

Similar criticisms could be found on news media outlets like Fox News and T.M.Z. Joe Scarborough, a former Republican congressman turned MSNBC host, posted on Twitter a picture of a looming stone wall Thursday with the remark, “Pope Francis, tear down that wall!”

But scholars who study Medieval Italy and the history of the Roman Catholic Church dismissed those criticisms as the product of a basic misunderstanding of both the geography and the history of Vatican City, a roughly 100-acre enclave in Rome that is the seat of the Holy See.

“The rhetoric from Trump’s team is misinformation, and it is not true,” said Gerard Mannion, a professor of Catholic Studies at Georgetown University in Washington.

“It isn’t all surrounded by walls, and it’s not like you need a separate visa or a passport to enter,” he said. “You wouldn’t know, almost, when you even entered Vatican City. There is a white line painted on the ground in St. Peter’s Square, but that kind of thing is not obvious everywhere.”

There are, to be sure, formidable walls in Vatican City, and much of of the site, including the gardens and the modest guesthouse that is home to Francis, is set behind them. But the walls do not entirely enclose the city-state, and in the modern era they are not meant to, historians said.

“Anybody can walk into St. Peter’s Square — that’s the whole point of it,” said Dr. Mannion. “It was designed to be welcoming and to draw people in like two open arms, to draw them into the heart of the church.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/20/world/europe/in-defense-of-trump-some-point-wrongly-to-vatican-walls.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
 

2/19/2016 7:50 am  #2


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

Walls that were built around hamlets, villages, and towns in medieval times were constructed for totally different reasons.  What may have been crucial to survival 600+ years ago in the times of city-states, papal states vying for control, and sense of communal safety don't apply today.

It's a goofball argument. 

 

2/19/2016 8:46 am  #3


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

That's true. If you tour Europe you'll see any number of towns and villages that have either Walls or the remnants of walls which date to medieval times, heck even to Roman times,,,,
Etruscan times, etc

it is indeed a stupid argument

Last edited by Goose (2/19/2016 8:51 am)


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
     Thread Starter
 

2/19/2016 8:56 am  #4


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

I don't understand why the Pope would wade into this?

Once again Trump has sucked all oxygen out of the room. Nothing but wall to wall Trump coverage this morning. Rubio got a big endorsement from Haley and what is being covered on TV this morning.

The Pope is the Pope. A wonderful man of God! His goal is to spread the loving word of God.

A country has every right and obligation to enforce immigration law. A country has borders and laws. That's is what the Federal government has a absolute responsibility to do! Protect the country and it's citizens. So to imply that there is something not christian with that is wrong. Can a country have no laws to control immigration?

I wonder if the Pope is going to make some statement about Catholic politicians who support abortion?
The Catholic Church has always condemned abortion as a grave evil.

 

Last edited by Common Sense (2/19/2016 9:19 am)


 “We hold these truths to be self-evident,”  former vice president Biden said during a campaign event in Texas on Monday. "All men and women created by — you know, you know, the thing.”

 
 

2/19/2016 9:07 am  #5


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

I think that the pope made the remark in response to a question. And I don't think that he was arguing for lawlessness

If someone asks him about abortion I'm sure he would condemn it as he has many many times in the past.

If would be a mistake to try to understand the pope in terms of our intramural politics. He isn't a democrat or a republican


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
     Thread Starter
 

2/19/2016 9:27 am  #6


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

I interpreted the Pope's words, 'bridges vs walls', as a metaphor for something much more philosophical than physical.

 

2/19/2016 9:32 am  #7


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

Just Fred wrote:

I interpreted the Pope's words, 'bridges vs walls', as a metaphor for something much more philosophical than physical.

 
Amen !

 

2/19/2016 9:39 am  #8


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

I am sure the Pope is a HUGE fan of Mr Trump ! 


"Do not confuse motion and progress, A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress"
 
 

2/19/2016 9:45 am  #9


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

Oh, BTW, you would not even be aware of the "walls" in Vatican City as ANYONE can freely pass into the area at any time. It is a welcoming area and requires no visa or any other credentials to enter. However, depending on when you go, there are SO MANY visitors there that it is a problem to get around and see all the historical areas. It TRULY is an area that has visitors every day from every area of the planet Earth. 
 


"Do not confuse motion and progress, A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress"
 
 

2/19/2016 9:45 am  #10


Re: In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

Did you happen to see Jimmy Fallon's monologue last night where he mentioned the war of words between Trump and the Pope?

Fallon (as Trump) responds to the Pope challenging his Christianity by building walls instead of bridges by saying the Pope is evidently unaware of how many carpenters named Jesus he employs. 

 

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