This forum is hosted for free by Boardhost. Create your own free forum!
1 2 Jump to
- Common Sense
- Exchanger
Offline - Registered: 2/16/2015
- Posts: 3,258
The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
(TW)
The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it is a terrible tool
[url=]Read the full story here:
[/url]
I made a joke on Twitter on Sunday night, which, as is the case with all Twitter jokes, was a mistake.It came after President Obama's Oval Office address, during which he advocated for excluding people on the government's no-fly list from buying weapons. The joke was this:
[quote888]
HOW TO BAN GUNS Step 1: People on no-fly list can’t buy guns. Step 2: Everyone goes on no-fly list.— Philip Bump (@pbump) December 7, 2015
The point of the joke -- which I very quickly realized was lost on some, making it a bad joke -- was that the no-fly list is a secret list that uses secret criteria to determine who finds a home on it.
So if you link banning guns to the no-fly list, the scenario presented is completely feasible: The government could theoretically add anyone it wants to the no-fly list, even broad categories of people, and thereby prevent them from owning a gun.Tim Sparapani is now principal of SPQR Strategies but was formerly senior legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union.
In that role, he became intimately familiar with the use of the no-fly list -- or, anyway, as familiar as someone from outside of the government can be. Armed with that knowledge, he explained why using it as the basis for much of anything was iffy, much less banning gun purchases."The problem with any kind of watch list," Sparapani said, "is that it's always going to be both under- and over-inclusive.
It suffers on both accounts. It causes so many problems that it really leads us to question the worth of having a list like this."An example of under-reporting was easy to come by: The shooters in San Bernardino. It's not clear that there was a way to definitively identify the married couple as being a public risk ahead of time, but it is clear that they weren't identified as such.
There will always be people who are not identified in advance, making the list necessarily incomplete.The San Bernardino attack also demonstrated the risk of over-inclusion. At least one news outlet confused the male shooter -- Syed Rizwan Farook -- with his brother, Syed Raheel Farook. "They have the same name except for the middle name," Sparapani pointed out, meaning that including a "Syed Farook" on the list might block either from flying.
(The shooter's brother is a decorated Navy veteran.) There's also the challenge of converting Arabic names into English writing. Consider the former leader of Libya, Muammar Gaddafi. Or Qaddafi. Or Gadhafi.
Do you put all three names on the list? Get the letters wrong, and some people will be banned who shouldn't be."What it does is makes us feel better, without providing us additional and necessary safety," Sparapani argued.
[/quote888]
Last edited by Common Sense (12/08/2015 1:53 pm)
“We hold these truths to be self-evident,” former vice president Biden said during a campaign event in Texas on Monday. "All men and women created by — you know, you know, the thing.”
- Goose
- Cogito ergo sum
Offline
- Registered: 1/29/2015
- Posts: 13,427
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
So, keep defending gun sales to terrorists.
We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists.
- Common Sense
- Exchanger
Offline
- Registered: 2/16/2015
- Posts: 3,258
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
What terrorist was on the list that bought a gun?
Name please?
And what terror act did they commit with said gun?
“We hold these truths to be self-evident,” former vice president Biden said during a campaign event in Texas on Monday. "All men and women created by — you know, you know, the thing.”
- •
Thread Starter- Common Sense
- Exchanger
Offline
- Registered: 2/16/2015
- Posts: 3,258
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
Hello................
The Constitution allows the government to infringe upon a person’s freedom, but only if certain conditions are satisfied.
The Fifth Amendment provides that, “No person shall … be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”
As the Supreme Court held in an important line of cases, this Due Process Clause requires that the government must provide a person a meaningful hearing before the government deprives that person of his rights.
Last edited by Common Sense (12/08/2015 1:59 pm)
“We hold these truths to be self-evident,” former vice president Biden said during a campaign event in Texas on Monday. "All men and women created by — you know, you know, the thing.”
- •
Thread Starter- Goose
- Cogito ergo sum
Offline
- Registered: 1/29/2015
- Posts: 13,427
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
Common Sense wrote:
What terrorist was on the list that bought a gun?
Name please?
And what terror act did they commit with said gun?
Hey, your position is that you would allow gun sales to suspected terrorists,,and,,, well to anybody.
Own it, Boobala.
We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists.
- Rongone
- Sentient Being
Offline
- From: Keeping Calm, Sailing On
- Registered: 1/31/2015
- Posts: 2,872
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
I would not rely solely on the no fly list, but it could be a starting point. Hey, it stopped Yusuf Islam from flying from London to New York a couple of years ago. Maybe he should have bought his ticket under his previous name: Cat Stevens.
Anyhow, that's beside the point. The root cause of the problems like the no fly list is that, in the haste to put up some security window dressing after 9/11, the Bush administration created DHS. That umbrella department was to coordinate security operations and make it easier for transparent sharing of information among the dozens of security departments in the government. The DHS was created, but did not fulfill this function. Instead it just created a behemoth of a federal agency that is fraught with problems . . . Just look at the dysfunctional TSA. None of the various security agencies have yet to freely share collected cross functional information. For one thing, their computer systems are incapable of linking up. If we truly want to increase security, whether it be no fly lists, identifying suspected terrorist in our midst, searching luggage for explosives, over staying visas, restricting access to weapons by criminals, or cyber security to protect the power grid or financial institutions, in my humble opinion, we need to restructure the multi headed hydra of non-communicative security agencies that still have and replace it with a real DHS. Until this happens, we are going to continue to hear about what dropped through the cracks in the wake of another disastrous intrusion to our country's security.
- Common Sense
- Exchanger
Offline
- Registered: 2/16/2015
- Posts: 3,258
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
What terrorist was on the list that bought a gun?
Name please?
And what terror act did they commit with said gun?
Hey, your position is that you would allow gun sales to suspected terrorists,,and,,, well to anybody.
Own it, Boobala.
Poor thing you can not find a name so you call me a name?
I labeled this a s a Trigger, guess you did not see it?
It's OK go to your safe space quickly!
“We hold these truths to be self-evident,” former vice president Biden said during a campaign event in Texas on Monday. "All men and women created by — you know, you know, the thing.”
- •
Thread Starter- Common Sense
- Exchanger
Offline
- Registered: 2/16/2015
- Posts: 3,258
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
I would not rely solely on the no fly list, but it could be a starting point. Hey, it stopped Yusuf Islam from flying from London to New York a couple of years ago. Maybe he should have bought his ticket under his previous name: Cat Stevens.
Anyhow, that's beside the point. The root cause of the problems like the no fly list is that, in the haste to put up some security window dressing after 9/11, the Bush administration created DHS. That umbrella department was to coordinate security operations and make it easier for transparent sharing of information among the dozens of security departments in the government. The DHS was created, but did not fulfill this function. Instead it just created a behemoth of a federal agency that is fraught with problems . . . Just look at the dysfunctional TSA. None of the various security agencies have yet to freely share collected cross functional information. For one thing, their computer systems are incapable of linking up. If we truly want to increase security, whether it be no fly lists, identifying suspected terrorist in our midst, searching luggage for explosives, over staying visas, restricting access to weapons by criminals, or cyber security to protect the power grid or financial institutions, in my humble opinion, we need to restructure the multi headed hydra of non-communicative security agencies that still have and replace it with a real DHS. Until this happens, we are going to continue to hear about what dropped through the cracks in the wake of another disastrous intrusion to our country's security.
Rongone I agree with you. DHS and TSA are a mess!
IG report after IG report spells out all the problems.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident,” former vice president Biden said during a campaign event in Texas on Monday. "All men and women created by — you know, you know, the thing.”
- •
Thread Starter- Goose
- Cogito ergo sum
Offline
- Registered: 1/29/2015
- Posts: 13,427
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
What terrorist was on the list that bought a gun?
Name please?
And what terror act did they commit with said gun?
Hey, your position is that you would allow gun sales to suspected terrorists,,and,,, well to anybody.
Own it, Boobala.Poor thing you can not find a name so you call me a name?
I labeled this a s a Trigger, guess you did not see it?
It's OK go to your safe space quickly!
No, you are not going to bait me.
So, who would you bar from owning a gun?
And, it's a term of endearment.
We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists.
- Common Sense
- Exchanger
Offline
- Registered: 2/16/2015
- Posts: 3,258
Re: The no-fly list is a terrible tool for gun control, in part because it
Hey, your position is that you would allow gun sales to suspected terrorists,,and,,, well to anybody.
Own it, Boobala.Poor thing you can not find a name so you call me a name?
I labeled this a s a Trigger, guess you did not see it?
It's OK go to your safe space quickly!
No, you are not going to bait me.
So, who would you bar from owning a gun?
And, it's a term of endearment.
From Rongone it's a term of endearment From you it is Not!
You are just upset that you can not answer the question?
Still waiting?
Last edited by Common Sense (12/08/2015 4:15 pm)
“We hold these truths to be self-evident,” former vice president Biden said during a campaign event in Texas on Monday. "All men and women created by — you know, you know, the thing.”
- •
Thread Starter
1 2 Jump to