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7/27/2015 4:47 pm  #11


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

Does anyone know if the people selected to cast the votes are required to follow the popular vote or can they choose whomever they like?  -  CT

Good question, CT.  I don't know.

 

 

7/27/2015 6:14 pm  #12


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

Conspiracy Theory wrote:

Just Fred wrote:

Ok, how abot a compromise?  For example, PA has 23 electoral votes.  Let's say The Red Tribe gets 40% of the popular vote and the Blue Tribe gets 60%.  Then 60%, or 13.8 electoral votes go to the Blues and the Reds get 9.2.

It just doesn't seem like it's very democratic or fair representation for one tribe to receive all 23 of PA's electoral votes when 40% of the people voted for the other guy and got nothing for it.

 

What troubles me about this method of election is that there are 23 individuals in PA who are essentially voting for the entire state.

This makes me uncomfortable because individuals can be influenced.

Does anyone know if the people selected to cast the votes are required to follow the popular vote or can they choose whomever they like?
 

 
They aren't required to follow the popular vote, but I don't know of one instance where they overrode the popular vote.  I think that would only be done if the popular vote was for a fictional character, or a dead person, or someone who is otherwise ineligible, etc., that kind of thing.

Last edited by The Man (7/27/2015 6:15 pm)

 

7/27/2015 8:41 pm  #13


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

The Electoral College is part of the US Constitution and reflects the founding fathers' distrust of EVERYBODY:  centralized government, leading to the tripartate federal systam which was matched with a distrust of the electorate.   

Heck, the original Constitution did not allow for the direct popular election of US Senators---they were selected by the States' legistlatures.

I don't care for it in its present "winner take all" configuration.   The best solution is the on again/off again proposal to allocate the vote as two votes (the state senators quota) as winner take all; the remaining votes would be winner take all by Congressional district.   Would that change the outcome in Pennsylvania a.k.a. "Pennsyltucky" ("Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between")?  Not likely.   But it might make some of the folks in "flyover country" feel a bit less disenfranchised.


Life is an Orthros.
 

7/28/2015 5:15 am  #14


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

Odd that our presidential election system consists of a process based on what a small, select number of people are 'supposed' to do.

This makes me dreadfully uncomfortable.


If you make yourself miserable trying to make others happy that means everyone is miserable.

-Me again

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7/28/2015 6:18 am  #15


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

I don't care for it in its present "winner take all" configuration. -  Tarnation

I don't either.

 

 

7/28/2015 7:22 am  #16


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

There have been 4 cases in the history of the U.S. where the winner of the popular vote nationwide was NOT the winner of the electoral vote and thus did not become POTUS. 

George Bush (electoral vote winner) vs. Al Gore in 2000: Al Gore won the popular vote by 543,816 votes

Benjamin Harrison (electoral vote winner) vs. Grover Cleveland in 1888

Rutherford B. Hayes (winner) vs. Samuel J. Tilden in 1876: Tiden won the popular vote by 264,292 votes

John Quincy Adams won the electoral vote in 1824 but lost the popular vote to Andrew Jackson by 44,804 votes in 1824
 


"Do not confuse motion and progress, A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress"
 
 

7/28/2015 8:43 am  #17


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

Just Fred wrote:

Ok, how abot a compromise?  For example, PA has 23 electoral votes.  Let's say The Red Tribe gets 40% of the popular vote and the Blue Tribe gets 60%.  Then 60%, or 13.8 electoral votes go to the Blues and the Reds get 9.2.

It just doesn't seem like it's very democratic or fair representation for one tribe to receive all 23 of PA's electoral votes when 40% of the people voted for the other guy and got nothing for it.

 

That sounds reasonable but I'm sure the devil is in the details. I also don't know how, since we vote for the individual electors, how an elector would give 8/10ths of a vote to one candidate and 2/10ths to another.

I keep going back to the thought that by and large, the electoral college has served us well throughout our history. Certainly, we are at a time where the make up of the nation, combined with that fact that we know so much more about the demographics of the electorate, that presidential campaigns have a fairly simple strategy once they reach the general election.

But 30 years from now, the make up of the electorate will be different. Heck, party platforms may be completely different (Imagine if the libertartian wing of the GOP ends up winning the internal battles within the Republican Party and over time, the right becomes the non-interventionist political party in the U.S.)

I say keep things as they are.


I think you're going to see a lot of different United States of America over the next three, four, or eight years. - President Donald J. Trump
 

7/28/2015 9:30 am  #18


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

I guess we will have to disgree on this one, Lager.  I simply don't think the 'winner take all' electoral stuff is a good idea.  Just round off the numbers in the example I presented and award 14 electoral votes to candidate 'A' and 9 to candidate 'B'.

 

7/28/2015 9:49 am  #19


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

Just Fred wrote:

I guess we will have to disgree on this one, Lager.  I simply don't think the 'winner take all' electoral stuff is a good idea.  Just round off the numbers in the example I presented and award 14 electoral votes to candidate 'A' and 9 to candidate 'B'.

If you really want to get into the weeds of this arguement, I found this paper that was published in 2012 that talks about the pros and cons of apportioning electoral votes via congressional district, the way Nebraska and Maine currently do.

It even highlights a movement in Pennsylvania between 2010-2012 to move to something similar

....What makes this more interesting is that other states might also be a target
for this kind of electoral change. For example, a similar change was recently proposed
for Pennsylvania by various Republican politicians, most notably State
Senate Majority Leader Dominic Pileggi³; despite there being a Republican governor,
and a Republican majority in both houses, the change was ultimately not
approved. Among the reasons cited for its failure was the simple chance that the
state could once again trend Republican in the near future, removing a gained
advantage; another was the simple possibility that the state would lose attention
and clout if fewer of its electoral votes were in play. Finally, there was the possibility
that the change of focus to the Congressional district level for president would
similarly affect other elections down the ticket, putting once-safe state-level seats
into play again.

The bottom line for me is that while the electoral college ain't perfect, it's the best we have and I think has served us pretty well. I think with the proliferation of the media, internet, and the whole information age, we may not see presidential candidates personally visit every district in the U.S. but I also don't think it leads to the level of disenfrachisement that others may claim.
 


I think you're going to see a lot of different United States of America over the next three, four, or eight years. - President Donald J. Trump
 

7/28/2015 11:05 am  #20


Re: Time for the Electoral College to Go?

Among the reasons cited for its failure was the simple chance that the
state could once again trend Republican in the near future, removing a gained
advantage; another was the simple possibility that the state would lose attention
and clout if fewer of its electoral votes were in play. Finally, there was the possibility
that the change of focus to the Congressional district level for president would
similarly affect other elections down the ticket, putting once-safe state-level seats
into play again.


Ha!  Funny thing is (for me anyway) is that each one of those 3 reasons would be the same reasons I would use to argue against the electoral system we have today.

In the end, with the system we have in place in PA and many other states, a bunch of voters are left biting the weiner because if their candidate didn't carry the state even by a slim margin, their votes get flushed down the toilet in a national election.

 

Last edited by Just Fred (7/28/2015 11:05 am)

 

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