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7/20/2015 3:16 pm  #1


Remember



It's Heritage, not hate.



Charleston SC, last weekend.

 


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
 

7/20/2015 5:03 pm  #2


Re: Remember

Right.  Confederate flag wavers standing up for their cause along with some guy holding up a swatstika.  Nothing about hate, just heritage.

 

7/20/2015 5:42 pm  #3


Re: Remember

Heritage hijacked by hate.


Life is an Orthros.
 

7/20/2015 6:49 pm  #4


Re: Remember

What a bunch of losers.  Bet their mommas are real proud of them.

 

7/20/2015 6:53 pm  #5


Re: Remember

That swastika makes my blood boil. 


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
     Thread Starter
 

7/21/2015 7:41 am  #6


Re: Remember

Goose wrote:

That swastika makes my blood boil. 

It is a symbol that here in the USA is associated with hate as a result of it being used by the Nazis in WWII and the pictures here are filled with people who use it for that same purpose. 

It is rather ironic, however, that the swastika in certain cultures such as Buddhism has a completely different meaning to them and is revered there as opposed to being hated. It is a reminder that a symbol itself is not good or bad but takes on those properties in relationship to how people use and celebrate it. 



 


"Do not confuse motion and progress, A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress"
 
 

7/21/2015 7:57 am  #7


Re: Remember

Here is a mosaic from a villa in Spain that dates to the era of the Roman empire.




Kinda unnerving when viewed in the context of our lifetimes.

Last edited by Goose (7/21/2015 7:57 am)


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
     Thread Starter
 

7/21/2015 4:03 pm  #8


Re: Remember

The bent-armed cross was appropriated as a Christian symbol in the early centuries--strangely, it also appars in the folk art of some of the Native Americans in the US Southwest "four corners" region.


Life is an Orthros.
 

7/21/2015 7:58 pm  #9


Re: Remember

Good one there, Tarnation.  Can't wait for a Christian or Native American in your neighborhood (or mine) to fly a swatstika over their home and claim they are just celebrating their heritage.  Even better, I wonder how the Foxy infotainment talking heads would handle that.

 

7/22/2015 7:08 am  #10


Re: Remember

Symbols have such meaning as we put in them. And that meaning changes as new groups adopt a symbol, and use it to represent some "truth" to them.

By the way, indulge me as this discussion reminds me of a great movie clip.







So, let's return to the confederate flag. Heritage, or hate?

This was the first flag of the Confederacy, the "Stars and Bars".




When the Civil War broke out, the "Stars and Bars" caused confusion on the battlefield at the First Battle of Bull Run because of its similarity to the U.S. flag, especially when it was hanging limp, down on the flagstaff. One should remember that in the19th century and earlier, flags, both national and those identifying specific units, were very important to commanders directing troop movements.

The "Stars and Bars" was also criticized on ideological grounds for its resemblance to the U.S. flag, which many Confederates disliked, seeing it as symbolizing abolitionism and emancipation, to which the government of the Confederacy existed for the sole purpose of opposing. As early as April 1861, a month after the flag's adoption, some were already criticizing the flag, calling it a "servile imitation" and a "detested parody" of the U.S. flag. In January 1862, George William Bagby, writing for the Southern Literary Messenger, wrote that many Confederates disliked the flag. "Every body wants a new Confederate flag," Bagby wrote, also stating that "The present one is universally hated. It resembles the Yankee flag and that is enough to make it unutterably detestable".

In any event, the CSA, army and naval units, and individual states developed dozens of flags. The one seared into our conciousness as "Confederate" was the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag, first flown in battle in December 1861.




During the war this flag was embued with it's own symbolism. But it was not a national flag, and had a practical purpose.

In the years following the civil war the Battle flag came to represent the confederacy as a whole. Adherents to the Lost cause myth played down slavery as the principle cause of the war, and focused on regional pride. In a revision of history, This flag, which did not represent the confederacy during it's brief existance, and was in practical use for a very short period of history, came to represent southern identity.

Let's fast forward a bit. After decades of the flag being flown primarily at civil war commemorations and at cemeteries, the flag becomes a symbol for something else. The times change. The civil rights movement gets started as african-americans struggle for human rights. Segregationists, and racists resist.

And the flag gets pulled into it.

This is the State flag of Georgia, or at least it was prior to 1956.



In 1956 the legislature of Georgia adopted this as their state flag.

The Georgia state flag that was used from 1956 to 2001 featured a prominent Confederate battle flag and was designed by Southern Democrat John Sammons Bell, a World War II veteran and an attorney who was an outspoken supporter of segregation.
The 1956 flag was adopted in an era when the Georgia General Assembly "was entirely devoted to passing legislation that would preserve segregation and white supremacy", according to a 2000 research report by the Georgia senate.


The flag flew until 2001.

South Carolina
South Carolina did NOT fly the confederate battle flag over the state capitol in the years after the war. After all, why would they? It was the battle flag of the army of Virginia. But, the flag was raised there in1961. Here too it flew in defense of segregation, and as a symbol of white supremacy and defiance to federal authority.


Hate Groups
Perhaps most famously, the confederate flag has been adopted by hate groups such as the kkk.
However, it is only fair to note that this twisted group of domestic terrorists has also hidden behind the Stars and Stripes.




Modern white supremacists have gravitated towards mixing the confederate flag with Nazi imagery, as I shared in the opening post.

So, where does this leave us? Well, the flag that flew over the South Carolina symbolized the oppression of black citizens, segregation, and racism. Why? Because that is what the people who put it there said it meant!

Symbols mean what the people who revere them say they mean. The confederate flag can be a symbol of racism to racists, adolescent rebellion by teenagers, or regional pride by some harmless person.

“Telling someone about what a symbol means is like telling someone how music should make them feel.” 
Dan Brown

Question: Heritage or Hate?
Answer: Both.


We live in a time in which decent and otherwise sensible people are surrendering too easily to the hectoring of morons or extremists. 
     Thread Starter
 

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